Continuing my analysis of the change in experience point calculations between 1e and 3e, this post looks at the Humanoid group as defined in 3rd Edition - bugbears, gnolls, goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds, lizardmen, locathah, mermen, orcs, sahaugin and troglodytes. (OK, I'll admit that 3e considers dwarves, elves, halflings and gnomes as humanoids also, but I like 1e's term of 'demi-humans' for them.)
I've placed a summary table below the fold showing the treasure, calculated experience and book experience points for average members of each race.
In crunching the numbers in the table I noticed a couple of things about the way the book values and calculated values correlate with in an edition.. One is that the ratio of 3e experience points calculated using the 1e formulas tallies pretty well with the 3e book values; in fact the calculated value is just 4% higher than the book. On the other hand, the first edition book values are one third higher than the calculated values.
Both of these are easy to explain, for the 3e values the experience points for characters in levels 1-3 equal the average treasure value of the monster. This won't hold true as we move up the food chain to more challenging creatures, but humanoids are all low level. Because the calculation gives one XP for each GP, the huge amount of gold each monster is worth overwhelms the paltry experience points that would be received for the monster itself.
For the 1st Edition values, a chunk of the discrepancy is a table error. The Experience Point table in Appendix E gives the humble bugbear a formula of 135 xp + 4 per hit point + treasure. The problem is that the calculation on page 84 uses 60 xp as the basic XP for a 3 HD monster - and 25 for a single Special Ability (Missile Discharge) I can not come up with a combination using the calculation that would give the bugbear 135 xp + hp. I considered throwing the error out of my analysis, but when 1e came out we never checked these calculations, they were from E. Gary's lips to our ears and therefore the word of at least a demi-god. If I threw it out it wouldn't reflect how the game was actually played.
I thought that I'd see a huge game imbalance due to the amount of cash flooding into 3rd Edition, on the average each monster is worth sixty four times the treasure that it was in 1e. But the difference in the numbers of monsters to be slain in order to advance only provides about 40% more cash to a 3e character as they advance to level 2.
Thoughts on Role Playing Games and possibly beer.
Wednesday, January 30, 2013
Tuesday, January 29, 2013
Teuta - Honor Among Thieves
As Teuta stood above the body, she felt the air stir in the chamber. Quickly drawing her dagger she spun to the side, crouching.
"Very nimbly done" said a familiar mocking voice from the shadows near the entrance."Move away, reduce their target. Wasn't that one of his lessons? Did you remember to stay out of the blood too?"
"Admaatos, his killer is still near! I saw Klephtis alive entering this room not ten minutes ago." Teuta exclaimed as she straightened, sheathing her dagger and surreptitiously moving he feet to answer his last question to herself.
Admaatos moved out from the shadows, stowing something under his cloak, saying "The Phrygian, I'm sure, I saw a man in a cap leave the door just as I came up the street. I didn't see you in the street, so how did you enter? Over the fence and through the kitchen?"
"Over the fence, up the wall and through the roof trap. I tested the kitchen and he has - had - something leaning against the door that would have fallen over with a clatter."
"Well, " he said, rubbing his nose "I suppose I might as well go tell Troadinus that he can pay the Phrygian."
Instantly, she crouched again with her dagger back in her hand, staring at him. "You betrayed him" she accused. "The Toad sent you here to ensure Klephtis was dead."
"Now it's not very respectful to call your new master 'The Toad', is it?" he laughed, shaking his head. "With Klephtis dead, Troadinus is the undisputed Master Thief of Apollonia. - And we now work for him."
"How could you work for that loathsome slug? Does nothing Klephtis did for you mean anything?"
"Loyalty is of no use to a dead man. That was another one of Klephtis' little lessons But, no, I did not betray him, I didn't know Troadinus was going to have him killed. But now that he has, we are expected to call on him for our new assignments."
"The only thing the Toad wants women to do is go whoring for information he can use against their customers." Teuta said, as Admaatos squatted down over the body "If that was all I wanted to do, I would have agreed to having my father arrange a marriage."
"You have a point about his view of women in the guilds, one that's a sharp as this little bolt that pierced old Klephtis' neck. Hmm, that wasn't fired from any belly bow." Admaatos said half to himself as he gave the body an expert frisking and stood. "Maybe our friends the Miraditorum have a new toy?"
"So Teuta, if you don't work for Troadinus, what will you do? Your only real options would appear to be a hasty marriage into one of the families or leaving town."
Teuta paused in the act of sheathing her dagger, suddenly numb with the realization that her life couldn't follow her chosen path any longer. She gasped in a deep breath and fought to control the emotions in her face, as the adrenaline suddenly drained away.
"I would advise you not to panic, but I don't think that's actually necessary" Admaatos said as he proffered her a small cloth wrapped bundle.
"What is it?" she didn't reach out for it.
"Klephtis' lockpicks. I know there is something special about them, but I don't know what it is. Troadinus will send someone to look for them as soon as he hears from the Phrygian. Take them, you can present them to Troadinus if you decide your throat is more important than your pride. You may be able to convince him to use you as more than an informant if you can figure out how to use them. Other wise you'll probably want them at some point. Of course, " he said with a wry smile "you can always give them back to me at the wedding, if that's the course you take."
He placed the tools in her unresisting hand, turned and left as silently as he had arrived.
"Very nimbly done" said a familiar mocking voice from the shadows near the entrance."Move away, reduce their target. Wasn't that one of his lessons? Did you remember to stay out of the blood too?"
"Admaatos, his killer is still near! I saw Klephtis alive entering this room not ten minutes ago." Teuta exclaimed as she straightened, sheathing her dagger and surreptitiously moving he feet to answer his last question to herself.
Admaatos moved out from the shadows, stowing something under his cloak, saying "The Phrygian, I'm sure, I saw a man in a cap leave the door just as I came up the street. I didn't see you in the street, so how did you enter? Over the fence and through the kitchen?"
"Over the fence, up the wall and through the roof trap. I tested the kitchen and he has - had - something leaning against the door that would have fallen over with a clatter."
"Well, " he said, rubbing his nose "I suppose I might as well go tell Troadinus that he can pay the Phrygian."
Instantly, she crouched again with her dagger back in her hand, staring at him. "You betrayed him" she accused. "The Toad sent you here to ensure Klephtis was dead."
"Now it's not very respectful to call your new master 'The Toad', is it?" he laughed, shaking his head. "With Klephtis dead, Troadinus is the undisputed Master Thief of Apollonia. - And we now work for him."
"How could you work for that loathsome slug? Does nothing Klephtis did for you mean anything?"
"Loyalty is of no use to a dead man. That was another one of Klephtis' little lessons But, no, I did not betray him, I didn't know Troadinus was going to have him killed. But now that he has, we are expected to call on him for our new assignments."
"The only thing the Toad wants women to do is go whoring for information he can use against their customers." Teuta said, as Admaatos squatted down over the body "If that was all I wanted to do, I would have agreed to having my father arrange a marriage."
"You have a point about his view of women in the guilds, one that's a sharp as this little bolt that pierced old Klephtis' neck. Hmm, that wasn't fired from any belly bow." Admaatos said half to himself as he gave the body an expert frisking and stood. "Maybe our friends the Miraditorum have a new toy?"
"So Teuta, if you don't work for Troadinus, what will you do? Your only real options would appear to be a hasty marriage into one of the families or leaving town."
Teuta paused in the act of sheathing her dagger, suddenly numb with the realization that her life couldn't follow her chosen path any longer. She gasped in a deep breath and fought to control the emotions in her face, as the adrenaline suddenly drained away.
"I would advise you not to panic, but I don't think that's actually necessary" Admaatos said as he proffered her a small cloth wrapped bundle.
"What is it?" she didn't reach out for it.
"Klephtis' lockpicks. I know there is something special about them, but I don't know what it is. Troadinus will send someone to look for them as soon as he hears from the Phrygian. Take them, you can present them to Troadinus if you decide your throat is more important than your pride. You may be able to convince him to use you as more than an informant if you can figure out how to use them. Other wise you'll probably want them at some point. Of course, " he said with a wry smile "you can always give them back to me at the wedding, if that's the course you take."
He placed the tools in her unresisting hand, turned and left as silently as he had arrived.
Monday, January 28, 2013
Sympathy for the Beedo
Over at Dreams in the Lich House, Beedo laments* that his players offed his big bad dragon so easily in the end, thanks to some rather good role playing decisions.
I have been on that side of the DM screen (although I don't know that Beedo uses one) and once saw an advanced Dragon Turtle waxed by a group of characters in a manner reminiscent of a banana in a blender, before she could take them to the (steam) cleaners. In hindsight, I didn't handle that well.
It's difficult to create interesting, challenging encounters regularly for your players and when they blow through a carefully crafted encounter or are completely uninterested in the story arc you've spent time crafting; it's easy to get a little down on your efforts.
Bad DMs fall into an us vs them mentality with their players. And having played in a couple of the infamous killer dungeons in my earlier days, there's a reason I haven't kept in touch with those DMs. They weren't fun.
A good DM keeps their perspective and is flexible to allow the players to explore the his or her world in their own fashion. It's game and when the players have enjoyed their session, you as the DM have won.
But don't rest on your laurels, Sisyphus, you have the next session to prepare for.
*Although from the tone of the article I suspect he's kind of proud of them.
I have been on that side of the DM screen (although I don't know that Beedo uses one) and once saw an advanced Dragon Turtle waxed by a group of characters in a manner reminiscent of a banana in a blender, before she could take them to the (steam) cleaners. In hindsight, I didn't handle that well.
It's difficult to create interesting, challenging encounters regularly for your players and when they blow through a carefully crafted encounter or are completely uninterested in the story arc you've spent time crafting; it's easy to get a little down on your efforts.
Bad DMs fall into an us vs them mentality with their players. And having played in a couple of the infamous killer dungeons in my earlier days, there's a reason I haven't kept in touch with those DMs. They weren't fun.
A good DM keeps their perspective and is flexible to allow the players to explore the his or her world in their own fashion. It's game and when the players have enjoyed their session, you as the DM have won.
But don't rest on your laurels, Sisyphus, you have the next session to prepare for.
*Although from the tone of the article I suspect he's kind of proud of them.
Friday, January 25, 2013
XP Evolution - The Orc
Consider the Orc it doth neither spin nor doth it sow.. Whoops - wrong allegory.
Rather my work on the HCEG has made me interested in the nuts and bolts of how experience has been calculated across the editions. My thoughts from my earlier work are that I will find a wide disarity between XP values between 1e and 3e and that 3e will be arbitrary. So I'm doing a series analyzing the XP values for individual monsters starting with the common Orc - homo sus orca.
In the table below I've laid out the statistics by game system with the right hand column being the total 1e XP earned for the line. The 1e Experience Point system (DMG p84) uses the formula Basic XP Value + XP per hit point + Special Ability Bonus per Ability + Extraordinary Ability Bonus per Ability. These values are adjusted by the creature's total hit dice, these are summed up in the row Calculated 1e XP..
| 1e | 3e | 1e XP | |
| Hit Dice | 1d8 | 1d8 | 10 |
| Average Hit Points | 4 | 4 | 4 |
| Special Abilities | Missile Discharge | Missile Discharge | 4 |
| Extraordinary Abilities | None | None | 0 |
| Average Treasure | 2d6 GP (7) | 300GP/2 (150) | 7 | 150 |
| Challenge Rating | N/A | 1/2 | |
| Calculated 1e XP | 25 | 168 | |
| Pre-calculated XP | 10+1*HP+ Treasure (21) | 300/2(150) (1st-3rd levels) |
The difference in the XP earned for slaying an Orc between 1e and 3e is dramatic to say the least. And because the creature hasn't changed, it really comes down to the treasure value. And it's not just that a 3e Orc is wearing better armor or that that is being taken into account on the treasure - scale mail is only 50gp in 3e, leaving over 2/3rds of the increase unaccounted for.
One of the other oddities that I noticed is the difference between the pre-calculated XP in 1e (from Appendix E) and what the formula derives. It appears that Appendix E does not give them credit for having missile weapons. The gap between the formula result and the pre-calculated results are consistent across the systems, in both cases the pre-calculated result is less than what the formula gives.For 1e its 85% of the formula, for 3e its 89% of the formula. Interesting but with only one data point not of any significance.
The impact of the disparity on game balance is huge, in 3e seven orcs is all it takes to raise any character from 1st to 2nd level. In 1e, using the formula, it takes sixty orcs to raise an assassin or cleric to 2nd level, 80 for a druid or fighter, 90 for a monk or a ranger, an even 100 for a magic user and a wearying 110 for a paladin,.
Probably not an original thought, but I think I just found the mathematical difference between Old School and d20.
Wednesday, January 23, 2013
eBook Report - Steam Legion
The author Evan Currie is (apparently) an established author of Mary Sue's. This represents his first foray into alt-history and he is refreshingly up front in his forward that he is no historian.
He's quite right about that, he also appears to know little, and research less, about topics as diverse as geography - the Nile is noted for flowing south to north, yet his heroine moves upstream to the north. To basic engineering - going from Heron's aeolipile to a steam engine driving a wagon in less than dozen years ignores decades of work to go from open systems like the aeolipile to stationary closed systems like the Newcomen engine that didn't need a constant source of water for steam. And another 90 years to get a practical steam carriage . Plus steam boilers are HOT, I should know as I've used them in the Persian Gulf in August. If your character gets thrown against an unshielded boiler, even a non-pressurized one, they are badly burned, not charging into a battle five pages later. That's assuming that an unwelded metal boiler wouldn't spring a leak the first time it hit a pothole in a wagon with no suspension. If you want a believable description of how to use an aeolipile to power a vehicle, read Terry Pratchett's Small Gods.
The description of the Roman military and society is also execrable. The Auxillia weren't a system of military reserves, they were non-Roman citizen units, often cavalry, or archers, although they were originally non-Roman troops of any sort. They lost a legion, they raised a legion. They did have colonies of retired soldiers planted in many lands, which could be called to arms. But the difference between light infantry (peltasts) and heavy infantry (legionnaires) is a matter of training more than equipment. The Romans most emphatically did not use the phalanx. The phalanx was a formation of spear men, really pikes. The Romans, as he describes quite realistically, fought with pilium (javelin) and short swords, the infamous gladius hispanica.
I also had to wonder where did his Zealot commanders get such good training and communication systems? He depicted them as being immune to the fog of war.
His description of the Emperor Nero is idiosyncratic to say the least and I actually found the plot that he was being slowly poisoned humorous as Nero was widely considered to have used poison to off his dear uncle the Emperor Claudius.
Ok, I really ripped the setting. But I'll also say that the writing was pretty good overall, I found the characters of the Centurion Cassius and Tribune Gordian compellingly believable and I think if the author had had an editor the overall story would have been worth reading. I probably would have recommended it in that case. But as it is -
Tuesday, January 22, 2013
Hex Crawl Encounter Generator
Version 1.0 is now up and running on the Utilities page.
For the source of the monsters, I used the 3e Monster Manual for the initial load. However I intend to add creatures from other systems in the future and wanted a away to do an apples to apples comparison. So I decided to calculate the 1e experience point value for each creature, using the formula given on page 84 of the DMG.
This provided some interesting initial results, the 3e challenge ratings appear far more arbitrary than the 1e formula. I'm going to do some serious analysis on that as the subject of one or more posts.
Enhancements I'm looking at for the HCEG include controlling encounter type by climate and terrain. Right now it's a somewhat coarse generic breakdown. I'll also be adding additional creatures and places of interest, and fixing the overrun I just noticed in the table,
With that said I've found that coding the HCEG was awfully time consuming over the last month - especially with what I was doing at work, so I'm going to put the enhancements on hold while I work on writing and other projects.
With that said, any suggestions for improvements and enhancements will be welcomed..
For the source of the monsters, I used the 3e Monster Manual for the initial load. However I intend to add creatures from other systems in the future and wanted a away to do an apples to apples comparison. So I decided to calculate the 1e experience point value for each creature, using the formula given on page 84 of the DMG.
This provided some interesting initial results, the 3e challenge ratings appear far more arbitrary than the 1e formula. I'm going to do some serious analysis on that as the subject of one or more posts.
Enhancements I'm looking at for the HCEG include controlling encounter type by climate and terrain. Right now it's a somewhat coarse generic breakdown. I'll also be adding additional creatures and places of interest, and fixing the overrun I just noticed in the table,
With that said I've found that coding the HCEG was awfully time consuming over the last month - especially with what I was doing at work, so I'm going to put the enhancements on hold while I work on writing and other projects.
With that said, any suggestions for improvements and enhancements will be welcomed..
Sunday, January 20, 2013
Beastiary - Stymphalian Birds
Anyone needing to hunt these fowls is advised to wear a thick suit of cork, which catches their beaks and renders them helpless.
Stymphalian Birds are about the size of an ibis. They favor nesting on forested hills and mountains in warm climates, buit may be found hunting through out the temperate zone in the summer.
Combat A Stymphalian Bird conducts fly by attacks, slashing with it's razor sharp beak..
Statistics by game system.
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3rd Edition / Pathfinder |
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 |
1st EditionAdventurer, Conqueror, King |
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Warhammmer Fantasy Role Playing 1e
| M | WS | BS | S | T | W | I | A | Dex | Ld | Int | Cl | WP | Fel |
| 2 | 40 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 4 | 70 | 1 | - | 14 | 15 | 25 | 10 | - |
Stymphalian Birds fly as Swoopers,
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